Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:59:49 +0100 From: Magnus /The Emperor/ Ingmarsson <emperornopsamolov.lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: 9-5 V6 is here!!
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Radek [iso-8859-2] Hul=E1n wrote: >=20 > Magnus Ingmarsson wrote: >=20 > > Yes, I can. The V70R AWD is basically an 850 from the beginning of the > > 90's. The 4x4 is another issue. >=20 > You are true about 70-series being 8-9 years old. But these Volvos can > still very well compete with any car in its class. 9-5 is e.g. safer than > S/V70, but Volvo's engines, What are your grounds for feeling that about their engines? (Just curious.) > traction with AWD, interior and cargo > space of V-version Saab 9-5 estate? I must say that when I first drove the Volvo S70 I was very impressed by the handeling. I am not anymore after I have driven the 9-5. > make them IMHO a winner. After Volvo will come > out (in a year or so) with 60-series (a substitute for S/V70), Saab > will not be able to compete with their still new 9-5, because Volvo > will be again a way ahead of Saab. And your proof for that is? > Moreover, if you consider Volvo S80, this car is a way better than 9-5. > It has very fast bi-turbo engine, probably the best safety on the planet, > great interior space, great traction (DSTC and STC systems), Servotronic, > best factory-installed stereo (with Dolby Prologic), etc., etc., etc. Okay I am doing a rundown of the 9-5 V6 and S80 at the bottom of this posting (to show that you are wrong in saying that a 9-5 Aero would not beat a S80 T6 of course ;-) ) Let me just say about Volvos safety (it is of course very high, but it has some flaws): The WHIPS whiplash protection system only protects you _ONCE_ because the system works by breaking a part of the chair. SO: If you are in a serial collition from the rear (common in the US) you will have NO use of it after the first car slams into you. But then there is car 2 3 4 5 ... ooops... The SAAB on the other hand has a _non_ breaking system that will protect you again and again and again since it works by using your bodymass from your back to get the headrestraint to meet up with with your head. Plus that the Saab 9-5 has just been judged as the safest car _ever_ in europe. On the interior space part I must agree with you. Soundsystem in the Saab: 9 speaker 200 W Harman Kardon. In the Volvo 10 speaker 200 W Dolby surround. But which brand and is it really best? No navigational system in the Saab yet. You could get "servotroninc" in the Citroen XM when that came out so... I don't beliave that the Volvo has heated rear seats...which the Saab has. Traction control is common... > > > > Now. If you really want you can beat the shit out of any Volvo, (even > > the R-versions. Because as you know, the R-versions are tuned at the > > factory, so it is actually unfair to compair a 9-5 V6 with a S70R. Now > > if you were to compare a 9-5 Aero (which is not out yet) with a S70R...= ) > > you can do it with a tuned Saab from Rolf Uhr. And it will cost you: > > (SEK excl VAT) >=20 > You cannot compare non existing Saab 9-5 Aero with EXISTING Volvo. > Who will buy it if it doesn't exist? Look at the parenthesis again. I am _not_ comparing a non existing AERO with a S70R, I am comparing a Rolf Uhr Saab with a S70R. Here is how the abow sentence looks without parenthesis: "Now. If you really want you can beat the shit out of any Volvo, you can do it with a tuned Saab from Rolf Uhr." I am doing a fair comparison since it is possible to buy today and it isn't overly tuned. I will discuss your argument of 320hp in a S70R below. > Also, you can tune-up current *factory > produced* S70R to get as much as 320 hp. First: Can you show me an URL for that fact? Second: Yes, a turbo engine can easily be made to produce alot more output then it was designed for. You just increase the turbo preassure. It is the easiest thing in the world to match that with a Saab turbo engine. If you go back to the early days of the racing (1978) with the Saab 99 you will find that they had increased the standard car from 140 Hp to 240 Hp and 369 Nm of torque at 3500 rpm. ( www.nijenrode.nl/~kroodsma/saab/museum/ ) Which is more than you'll find for example in Volvo V70R: ( www.volvoclub.org.uk/volvo/s70v70r.htm ) Volume: 2.3 Litre Torque: 350 Nm 0-100 Km/h : 6.7 seconds 0-100 values for _frontwheel_ drive. (I am being nice since the AWD is slower, even though 0-100 is a LOUSY way of measuring. Overtaking performance for example 70-120 is a _much_ better measure.)=20 Now lets see about the 9-5 V6: ( www.saabsverige.com ) Volume: 3.0 Litre Tourqe: 310 Nm 0-100 Km/h : 8.3 seconds which is as it should be since this is not the Aero model. _DO_ note that this is a _low_ preassure turbo and that the Volvo is a _high_ preassure turbo. Also _note_ the diffrence in volume of the engines. Do _you_ think it is easy to increase the power output of the Saab engine? Of course! It is not even running at full "normal" turbo yet. Therefore lets compare a more realistic Saab 9-5 with the V70R. Lets have a look at the Rolf Uhr Saab 9-5: ( www.saabtuning.com ) 2,3 Turbo Step 1 - 245hp/360Nm 0-100 Km/h : 6.5 seconds Okay so lets see who is the better? Oh, the price? For "the works" the price approximately the same for the Volvo S/V70R and the Saab 9-5 Nordic: All facts below from Swedish car magazine Auto Motor & Sport: ( www.nordicuhr.se/press/ams/ ) Saab 9-5 Nordic: 397 800 :- =3D $49725 Volvo S/V70R: 390 100 :- =3D $48763 =09=09=09=09Saab 9-5 Nordic =09Volvo S70 R Engine=09=09=09=094-cyl SIL=09=095-cyl SIL Volume cm3 =09=092 290=09=09=092 319 kW (hk) at r/min=09=09180 (245) vid 5 500 =09184 (250) vid 5 100 Max Nm vid r/min=09=09370 vid 1 900=09=09350 vid 2 700 1 000r/min 5:th km/h=09=0947,1=09=09=0944,2 Weight/maxload kg=09=091 625/425=09=091 510/410 Length/width/height mm=09=094 805/1 792/1 449=094 722/1 760/1 380 Axledistance mm=09=09=092 703=09=09=092 660 Acceleration s 60-180 km/h=0920,4=09=09=0919,4 Elasticity 60-100 km/h 4:th=096,5=09=09=098,0 Elasticity 80-120 km/h 5:th=099,9=09=09=099,7 Stopping m from 180 km/h=20 wet road:=09=09=09138=09=09=09148 Topspeed km/h=09=09=09250=09=09=09250 Testconsumption l/100 km=0910,2=09=09=0910,6 Noice dB(A) vid 100 km/h=0967=09=09=0966 Cost /10 km =09=0918,50:-=09=09=0916,50:- Just look at those torque figures! :-D (The Volvo is faster in 60-180 and 80-120 Km/h, but 0-100 Km/h (although bad measure) and 60-100 Km/h is a BIG diffrence. Plus the 180-0 Km/h. The Volvo needs 10 more meteres... Alot of people just talk about acceleration, but what good is acceleration when you can't go as fast as you want before a turn since you have "bad" brakes? So what did Rolf Uhr do to the engine? Engine control system: Reprogrammed and optimized for 98 octane fuel. Exhaust: Wider plus racing cathalyst. Inside of engine: TOTALLY ORIGINAL. The brakes of the Volvo were showing _small_ signs of fatigue after 5 brakes from 180-0 Km/h. On the Saab: _NOTHING_ Brakes: AP Racing diameter 330 mm (Yes, the Volvo S/V70R has tougher brakes 2 than the original S/V70.) Note that the Nordic Saab that was tested had the "soft" suspension. (Of course harder than the original Saab suspension but the softest of the 3 that you can select from.) What is the verdict of the handeling?: The Volvo is more neutral in curves, the Saab is as always understeered but can brake out with the "stern" if provoked. Although it is easy to get back on track. The Volvo is more "nice" to drive through the long curves since it can be controlled with the accelerator. BUT the Saab is _faster_ through the curves due to its 18 inch wheels, 8.5 inch wide wheels and 225/40 tires. And remember: You have two more levels of harder suspension to select from for the Saab. :-D They say that the Volvo is not comfortable to ride in, but they also say that the Saab is. Now if you were to say that it is not fair that they didn't test the V70R AWD against the Saab Nordic 9-5, you should bare in mind that the performance decreeses with the number of wheels that you use for propulsion ----> 0-100 Km/h 250 Hp 350 Nm FWD : 6.7 seconds 0-100 Km/h 250 Hp 350 Nm AWD : 7.3 seconds so that doesn't help you except possibly in some better curvetaking. > New Saab 9-5 Aero will hardly match Volvos 272 hp in S80, Okay, so lets see about this aledged truth: What is the engine in the Volvo S80 T-6? ( www.volvocars.volvo.se ) 6 cyl / inline:=20 272 Hp at 5 400 rpm 380 Nm at 2 000 rpm Volume: 2783 cc 2.8 litres Two turbos. Saab 9-5 V6 today: 6 cyl V 3 litres 1 Small low preassure turbo. 310 Nm at 2 500 rpm 200 Hp at 5 000 rpm Now: Do you see that the Saab has a bigger volume? (That makes it easier to beat the Volvo, when you add normal turbos.) Do you see that the Saab only has only 1 Small low preassure turbo? Do you see that the Saab produces 310 Nm with that little turbo? (Again Hp is not important. It is the torque that counts.) Okay, so what is my point? My point is that the engine is there, it is just for the Saab technicians to add two normal preassure turbos and the Saab will _easily_ be in parity with the Volvo and beyond! How fast is the Volvo T6: Semi- to Fully-Automatic gearbox. 0-100 Km/h 7.2 seconds=20 Saab 9-5 V6 today: 0-100 Km/h 8.3 seconds The future "full turbo" version will easily take care of that to. Price Volvo S80 T6: 389 900 :- $48738 Can you tell me why I shouldn't buy a Saab 9-5 Nordic? > which can again be tuned up! Moreover, price of 9-5 Aero will probably > be the same or maybe even higher than of superior S80! When it comes to the price, I think they will be about the same. So, what does it sum up to? I have been in the S80 and I am _not_ impressed. Neither are my friends who are _Volvo_ fanatics. They think that the Saab has _better_quality_ in the details and that it is really nice to drive. It was very VERY hard for them to say it. Plus here in Sweden there has been numerus reports of the S80 malfunctioning, kind of the same as when Saab presented the new 900 some years ago. Above I have tried to objectivly compare the cars with references to the places from where I have gotten the data. ************************************************************************ * /\/\agnus Ingmarsson | Studying for a masters in * * Linkoping University Sweden | Cognitive Science * *-----------------------------+------------+---------------------------* * WWW: http://www.lysator.liu.se/~emperor/ | Phone: INT+46(0)705641323 * *-----------------------------------+------+---------------------------* * e-mail: emperornopsamtor.liu.se | Proud European Federalist * ************************************************************************
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