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Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 16:22:28 GMT
From: Harvey White <madynnopsametcom.com>
Subject: Re: Saab Complaint


On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 05:52:29 GMT, milt brewster <milt73nopsamc.net> wrote: <snip> > 1) Blowouts do happen. One frequent cause is that people with low >> profile tires do not properly inflate them. This causes sidewall >> bulge and excess wear on the rim, which leads to blowouts. > >Absolutely true. The problem he sidestepped, is that the tires >that Saab provides as OEM equipment are designed so they will >lose pressure in normal use a LOT faster than they should. Actually, I'm not sure that he sidestepped it. He specifically mentioned low profile tires. My 9.5 uses 215 R60 16's IIRC, and these do not qualify as low profile, I rather suspect he was thinking of the people with the 17 inch wheels. When he held his hand up to show the low profile tire, it was half the distance of the tread to wheel rim of my tires. > >While we could toss around how 'negligent' I am (and others here >in this thread have), the real issue here is whether I should be >able to drive my car more than one hour at 65 MPH and NOT have to >stop at a garage to inflate my four tires. I maintain that I >should. I'd agree. However, that statement is a bit exaggerated. I'd be curious to see just how fast you lose pressure, and you might want to do a 15 minute check/drive/check to make sure. However, I do caution you that a low volume tire does not hold much air, and measuring the pressure on the tire WILL cost you some tire pressure. If this is going to be a major issue, is there a tire pressure monitor that you can retrofit? > >Your guys should also affirm that under normal conditions, a slow >leak on Saab Michelins will turn into a blowout in a matter of >just a few seconds. I maintain that this is inherently unsafe >behavior and that Saab had a responsibility to design their car >and provide tires that do NOT behave this way. I think that he did, but not to mention the slow leak... I think that this difficulty (susceptibility to sidewall damage) is inherent in any low profile tire (also possible wheel damage when hitting something large, since the tire can deform only so much). The question here is rapidly becoming one of "do Michelin tires on Saab rims have a slow leak"? Given that you have a slow leak, and are not in a position to catch it, the rest becomes inevitable. > >Finally; while blowouts "happen," other cars simply don't do what >my Saab did. For example, I would be amazed if late model Honda >or Toyota cars using substantially the same equipment behaved in >this way. Well, considering the wheel rim design that I suspect is on all these cars, I'm not sure that it wouldn't happen. I had a Ford '89 probe that had a slow leak in the rear tire. I"d come out and find it flat after a week or three... Now looking at how that tire is designed, I'd say that the wheel rims will try to cut through the tire tread if deflated. I'm not convinced that the incision problem you have is unique to Saab. > > >> >> 2) The contract is between you and the tire company. Saab is under no >> absolute obligation to mess with the contract you have with the tire >> company. Your first line of opportunity is to talk to Michelin, >> that's who the guarantee is with. As to whether Michelins are somehow >> defective, any tire in the situation in #1 above will fail. >> >> 3) Based on what the technician said, I do not recommend that you use >> Pirellis. They seem to have significant sidewall bubbles.... >> >> Please note that point #3 is only anecdotal, and I have no particular >> kind of documentation to support it. > >While the NTHA and other sources do provide some data on problems >like this; their data is late and faulty as well. They are not >really an "authority," they are just a good information source. You might try www.tirerack.com for more anecdotal evidence, and some decent test data. I was impressed. There seems to be some decent tires for (at least) my model year at significantly less dollars than the Michelins... how good they are is another matter. > >In the end, we buyers have to base our decisions on anecdotal >comparasons of experience like this, and take the Manufacturer's >word for it (their Warrantee), that they have designed and built >a product that is safe to operate under normal conditions and >will make good on any product failure we experience under those >condiditions. Saab didn't live up to their Warrantee. You're lumping two different manufacturers under the same warrantee. This probably will not work. Every new car I've bought has a separate tire warrantee, and with the tire manufacturer only. > >> >> <snip> >> > >> >> Tires were very important to me before I bought them. That's why I bought good >> >> tires with the heat rating, speed rating and tread pattern I needed. >> > >> >and why I fully expect an auto manufacturer like Saab to equip >> >their new cars with tires suitable for the uses to which their >> >owners will put their new cars. >> >> if you mean "ordinary use"..... yes, however, if you mean "any use", >> that's not workable. > >"Ordinary use" is a precise term that the US Auto industry has to >define and support under the product Warrantees it extends to >owners. It means substantially what you think it means and >doesn't mean what you suggest it should not mean. Under these conditions, you should examine the exclusions carefully. I think that "improper inflation" is not a "normal use" situation. You might want to consider the "run flat" variety of tires.... Note also (and how many miles do you have on your car now?) that two of the other tires have not failed, nor has the 300 mile replacement failed. > >> >> Harvey > >You know what, Harvey? This is exactly what several other people >have told me now, and it is useful to me even though I don't >find it to be entirely good news for me. Lots of things we hear are useful, but certainly what we don't want to hear. Foglamp damage, for instance. > >While my tire contract is indeed between me and the tire company; >it does involve the Manufacturer if the tires came with the car >as original equipment. This really is a Legal issue; not a >mechanical issue. Still, your guy was right: I have to start >with the Michelin folks. They are the ones. You may or may not have an action against Saab IF and only IF Saab has a wheel rim design sufficiently flawed that it causes these tires to fail... but that's my opinion. > >... but I get to note that the Saab folks were less than no help >at all, when they should have been. > >**** > >I put two dunlop sports on the Saab because that was all I could >find that fit, after phoning around a dozen tire dealers. These >dunlops have what looks like stronger sidewalls to me, and they >run significantly cooler than the Michelins do. I am continuing >to look for a better tire choice for this car. Again, I'd suggest tire rack. They seem like a good idea. Harvey > > >mb

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