Re: What weave is that? It looks really tight... - Saab Performance Bulletin Board - Saabnet.com
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Re: What weave is that? It looks really tight...
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Posted by Dave Chicago [Email] (more from Dave Chicago) on Sat, 27 Nov 2004 08:59:57 Share Post by Email
In Reply to: What weave is that? It looks really tight..., KevinY, Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:08:04
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If you want to go off-list, email me directly at dbrezina at btlaw.com. But some of these principles might be applicable to performance cars. I think Colnago bikes shared technology with Ferrari. The Treks are purpose-designed for bikes -- it's different designing a vehicle whose frame is 1kg for 1hp with the 'motor' on the top, compared to a frame that's 500kg for 500hp with the powertrain on the bottom.

The trick in the Treks is to mold the hard to mold parts (the lugs) in a female mold, with precision joints spaced away from the location of stress, and join machine molded tubes. So they come out of the mold almost ready to paint. The problem with forming carbon fiber components is that the reason you use the stuff is it is incredibly hard and stiff, which makes it very hard to bend multiple laminations to complex shapes. I'm not sure how the DeRosas are made, but I've seen the Colnago patent and they butt tubes and then wrap them. The Treks are laminations of 8+ unidirectional fiber layers, with more where there is stress or where stiffness is desired. Only the outer layer has a 'weave'. This is all public information if you know where to look. Try http://www.uspto.gov and look at patent number 5624519. (You'll need a tif viewer as a plugin to your browser) My own patent on a carbon fiber bike frame is No. 4493749.

What would I do with carbon on my Saab? I have a convertible. How about plug molding the bows for the top? Get rid of that steel and reduce total weight and lower CG. Of course you could do hood and trunk lid, and doors. But we're talking serious money for the materials. Look at the Aircraft Spruce and Specialty site under composites. I think it's nearly $30/yd for one layer of unidirectional. So to cover a yard, you'd need 8*$30, and that's not including the epoxy or foam core. If I wanted to make a Saab hood (but the trouble in even my mildly hot-rodded Saab is that the front end lifts, reducing traction, so reducing weight there isn't a priority) I'd use a foam core with carbon/epoxy skins.

Bike parts are so small and so highly stressed, I wouldn't try any of that in my basement. About all you could do that would be safe would be a rack or a water bottle cage. Don't even think of a DIY fork. Given the time needed, trial and error and cost of materials, you would not likely save any money over the commercial products -- even those $500 cranks -- and the engineering is really hard to do right. If you put in enough goo to make up for sloppy techniques, you lose the weight savings to get enough strength. And even if you're getting tips from Ferrari, you're bike might cost double what it has to (the Colnago C-50 is probably more than the 5900, but for a finished bike, that also depends on the components).

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