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Re: DIC, TB, and CPS (crank position sensor) (long) Posted by CrNiFe [Email]  (#408)  [Profile/Gallery]
(more from CrNiFe) on Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:38:42
In Reply to: direct ignition cassette (DIC) & throttle body (TB), s beach, Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:32:03 Members do not see ads below this line. - Help Keep This Site Online - Signup |
These three issues are why I spent $$$ on a non-GM extended warranty. I too am a mechanical engineer, but perhaps my approach is different. When I learned of the problems on this bbs, especially from Ian Glenday's post, I took a proactive stance, and bought the spare DIC and CPS, and they ride with me. My local dealer's service manager tells me he has a way of jury-rigging the throttle body so I won't get stuck in limp home mode, and when he actually show me, I will share it here. It is a pipe dream to expect someone to pick up the tab on our older vehicles.... but I agree that there is a safety dimension to the problem.
As to the idea of informing NHTSA, they have a form that you can fill out and file a complaint. In your case, the safety hazard of losing all power on the highway, or in the middle of a left turn in heavy traffic would add weight -- someone must have already complained about this in the past. (see lower in this post!) In Canada, I know that Transport Canada will investigate an issue, and that most manufacturers prefer to have voluntary recalls rather than mandatory ones.When enough complaints of technical deficiencies are received both organizations will start investigations.
The trouble is that if someone has an accident because of power loss, the remaining evidence may not tell the whole tale - as in the ECM and the air bag module wherever they are in the SAAB, may not have the data to indicate a full engine stall at speed, and since I don't know if they have EEPROMs, the failure codes may just disappear when the rescue crews cut the cable to the battery....even as a vehicle accident reconstructionist, I would have trouble proving it was the principal cause of the accident.
Here is what the NHTSA has under complaints for my model year 99 9-5s:
TYPE : VEHICLE
YEAR : 1999
MAKE : SAAB
MODEL : 9-5
Results : 3 | All records displayed
Make : SAAB Model : 9-5 Year : 1999
Crash : No Fire : No Number of Injuries: 0
ODI ID Number : 10036842 Date of Failure: August 29, 2003
Component: ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:IGNITION:MODULE
Summary:
FAILURE OF DIRECT IGNITION CASSETTE. VEHICLE (1999 SAAB 9-5 SE) STOPS RUNNING IN TRAFFIC AND CANNOT BE RESTARTED. BASED ON REPORTS IN SAABNET.COM, THIS IS A RELATIVELY COMMON FAILURE. *AK
Check to Request Research. Submit below.
Make : SAAB Model : 9-5 Year : 1999
Crash : No Fire : No Number of Injuries: 0
ODI ID Number : 10063751 Date of Failure: March 15, 2004
Component: ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:IGNITION:MODULE
Summary:
CAR STARTED RUNNING BADLY (MISFIRING). BASED ON NUMBER OF FAILURES REPORTED ON THE SAABNET WEBSITE, I FIGURED THE DIRECT IGNITION CASSETTE WAS FAILING. REMOVED IT AND FOUND A CRACKED COMPONENT IN THE CASSETTE. REPLACED THE CASSETTE WITH NEW ONE ($414 LIST PRICE) AND PROBLEM CURED. SAAB NOW WANTS FAILED CASSETTE BACK AND IS CHARGING A $250 CORE CHARGE IF IT'S NOT RETURNED. ANOTHER EXPENSIVE AND COMMON FAILURE WITH THE 9-5.*AK
Check to Request Research. Submit below.
Make : SAAB Model : 9-5 Year : 1999
Crash : No Fire : No Number of Injuries: 0
ODI ID Number : 782557 Date of Failure:
Component: ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:IGNITION:MODULE
Summary:
WATER SOMEHOW ENTERED THE VEHICLE AND CORRODED THE MAIN COMPUTER CAUSING THE A/C AND LIGHTS TO MALFUNCTION. 8ET
These complaints did not lead to a formal investigation of the issue.
Many simple questions can be answered free of charge by calling NHTSA toll-free Auto Safety Hotline at 1-888-327-4236.
So I checked into the Investigations part of the site, and found that no SAAB investigations were performed in 1999, 2000, 2001 , 2002 or 2004 model years, but the 2003 9-3 has one concerning the ECU and stalling while driving.
NHTSA Action Number : EA04008 NHTSA Recall Campaign Number : N/A Make : SAAB Model: 9-3 Manufacturer : SAAB CARS USA, INC. Year : 2003 Component : ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:IGNITION:MODULE Date Investigation Opened : March 19, 2004 Date Investigation Closed : Open
Defect Summary
Make: SAAB
Model: 9-3
Year: 2003
NHTSA Action Number: EA04008
Summary:
THE SUBJECT VEHICLES ARE EQUIPPED WITH AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSIONS AND TURBOCHARGED ENGINES WITH TWO DIFFERENT POWER OUTPUTS, 175 HP AND 210 HP. SAAB HAS MODIFIED THE ELECTRONIC CONTROL MODULE (ECM) SOFTWARE IN THE SUBJECT VEHICLES TO CORRECT PROBLEMS THAT COULD RESULT IN ENGINE STALL IN BOTH ENGINES. IN JANUARY 2003, SAAB DISABLED THE DUAL MASS FLYWHEEL (DMF) PROTECTION (INTENDED ONLY FOR MANUAL TRANSMISSION VEHICLES) IN SUBJECT VEHICLES WITH 175 HP ENGINES. ACCORDING TO SAAB, DMF PROTECTION IN A VEHICLE WITH AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION MAY CAUSE THE ENGINE TO STALL WHEN RELEASING THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL, WHEN COMING TO A STOP, OR THE VEHICLE IS COASTING. IN AUGUST 2003, SAAB REVISED THE ECM SOFTWARE IN THE 210 HP ENGINES TO ADDRESS A CONCERN WITH ENGINE STALL DURING "ABORTED TAKE-OFF" MANEUVERS. ACCORDING TO SAAB, "ABORTED TAKE-OFF" STALLS OCCUR WHEN THE VEHICLE IS STATIONARY AND IN DRIVE GEAR, THE ENGINE IS IDLING, AND THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL IS PULSED (PRESSED QUICKLY AND RELEASED IN LESS THAN 1 SECOND). THERE HAVE BEEN 553 NON-DUPLICATIVE COMPLAINTS TO ODI AND SAAB ALLEGING ENGINE STALL IN THE SUBJECT VEHICLES. THERE IS ONE REPORTED CRASH AND NO INJURIES. SAAB INITIATED A CUSTOMER SATISFACTION PROGRAM IN EARLY FEBRUARY TO REPROGRAM THE ECM'S. SAAB REPORTED THAT 36% OF THE VEHICLES HAD BEEN SERVICED IN THE PROGRAM AS OF MARCH 9, 2004. AN ENGINEERING ANALYSIS HAS BEEN OPENED TO FURTHER ASSESS THE ALLEGED DEFECT IN THE SUBJECT VEHICLES AND SAAB'S ACTIONS TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEMS.
Follow the links to the documents and have a look at the third one.
1. INOA-PE03059-16731P.pdf -- OPEN RESUME APPROVED ( 18.41 KB)
2. INCLA-PE03059-17451p.pdf -- CLOSE RESUME APPROVED ( 24.79 KB)
3. INIM-PE03059-16951P.pdf -- IR TO MFR ( 691.83 KB)
Perhaps Dean has some statistics to share about the relative proportion of cases of DIC, TB and CPS failures in the population of 9-5's... maybe it would take a list of complaints or a direct intervention with engineer Peter Kivett or division chief Jeffrey L Quandt. Or maybe there are too few of us to warrant the assignment of resources!
Regards,
CrNiFe
MY99 9-5 SW, 2.3lpt, 84000km
posted by 65.94.201...
, Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:38:42 <-- Viewing This Message
, Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:11:51
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