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Summary, "about HW parts"
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Posted by Vigge [Email] (more from Vigge) on Sat, 18 Dec 2004 00:06:57 Share Post by Email
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Hi,

I personally feel that now is the right time to finally try to sum up the
whole "monster" thread: "about custom HW part". Firstly, I know that barely any of you have read the entire thread, due to the length of the discussion and the amount of BS. I can't say I'm proud for all of my post, but I honestly feel that every action has a reaction, in this case an outcome.

Secondly I would like to offer my thanks to all the writers in that thread, mainly to Drew in Houston, and the guys from MP performance. Without our comments and data, writing this post would just be based on my assumptions, which we all hate after all.

I think it is fear to say that we have four cars that are more or less
important to this discussion, Drews 9-3 SE ( rated 205bhp ), MP advertisement ncar ( 9-3, rated to 185 bhp), Philip's viggen ( rated to 230 bhp ) and Adrian's viggen ( rated to 230bhp ). Among these cars I will be also quoting some other cars, but their roles are to bring only support to my point of view. I think it is logical to go trough the car one by one, so I will follow that path.

Drew's car:
Original HW dyno sheet can be found here:
http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/bb/performance/index.html?bID=87500
Measured output according to dyno: 224.5 Whp peak(with 12% loss = 250hp)
From Drew we got the following information about this run:
"The dyno is at a Porshe race shop, it is a DynoJet and it is calibrated"

I my self find it very strange that a Porsche racing shop do dyno runs in
third gear? Maybe Drew can fill us in over this issue. To my understanding all the major players who deal with Saabs use fourth gear. Anyhow my friend dynoed his 9-3 aero ( same engine as the SE in the states ) to 215Whp in third gear, but like said before non of us (would be me and the bunch of my friends) believed that the result was correct. The only reason why my friend's car was dynoed in third gear was the fact that they did not have enough tie downs to secure the car to the rollers, in other words it just pealed out in fourth. This dyno differs form the dynojet, run takes about a minute. Here is a link to a video where my car is dynoed at the same shop. Look at the length of the run at that shop http://viggen93.mine.nu/dyno/dyno.wmv Even though the name Porsche is mixed in for respect, one can only wonder what their real know how around saabs is? I my self find it hard to give any credit what so ever for these results. Maybe Drew wondered also once upon time "specify that I'm running on a DynoJet setup. :) I wonder if the inaccuracies you've described have anything to do with the extra difficulties associated with measuring an AWD car?"

Then we have the results for JR Filter and JT Full 3" Exhaust
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/754856/stock_vs_exhaustfilter.jpg
231 Whp, gain over peak 6.5whp. What else do we know? Wheels where changed
from 16" to 17" between the runs. We also know that a stock T7 can will vary at least 7 whp between runs. Adrian provided the following results (206,211, 213), link to his post
http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/bb/performance/index.html?bID=87657
The deviation can be explained in many ways: dynos repetability, T7 adaptions and so on. I had less deviation than Adrian in peak hp, but there surely are "big" gaps between the two runs at certain points.
http://viggen93.mine.nu/dyno/ennen.jpg (sorry, you can see the power curve
that well, but torque will give you the same result). If we look more closely, Drew did not provide us with a torque curves from his car, so we need to calculate. By looking at the sheet
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/754856/stock_vs_exhaustfilter.jpg a
rough calculations will give us the following result, torque does drop 30 ft- lbs between 47 and 49 mph, while with the stock HW this does not happen. Also with stock HW the car does produce more power to about 4200rpm. After this Drew added a big custom IC to his car. Dyno sheet was not provided, but the results according to Drew are: but my last run was 236 HP at the wheels ( comment can be found here
http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/bb/performance/index.html?bID=84940 )

What do we got, a T7 car with the following specs by Drew:
"DP/sportcat, 3" full exhaust, big intercooler, turbo inlet pipe, open cone air filter. 2001 9-3 2.0 HOT, no problems, good A/F. No software yet. Stock 1 bar boost."

with stock HW parts the run was 224.5 Whp peak and with the all the mods 236, a gain in peak equal to 11.5whp. We, or at least I don't have the latest sheet so comparison over the rpm range cant be done.
Conclusions:
- Adrian provided facts that his T7 had the variation of 7Whp (3 runs made).
- This porche shop dynoed the car in 3. gear
- wheel size was changed from 16" to 17" between the runs.
- Speed was taken from roller?, tire size and deformation under run will affect result big time
Gain in dyno = 11.5whp about 5%, when proved deviation in a dynojet is over 3% ((Arians results). It surely can be more, also different tires do affect results.

Other results, quarter mile is reliable.
Form dragtimes, we get 14.687s and 95,720mph (The mods are listed, 3" exhaust w/DP, and open cone filter). Before with stock HW time of 14.950 at 94.96 mph. For time we get deviation of 0,263s. Here are four consecutive pulls for a 9-3 saab owned my a Swedish guy.
Car, time, reaction, jump start)
3351 15,83 0,68 0
3351 15,92 0,80 0
3351 16,08 0,69 0
3351 16,09 0,85 0
Same car same day, variation in time 0,26s, which equals Drews spot on. So
nothing more than normal deviation here. Oh wait, Drew said his car ran
14.6/97mph, but he does not have the slip. Even with this we have the
deviation of only 0.35s.

Drew commented his gains "I don't know what your experience with drag racing is, and I'm surely not a professional by any means, but an almost 3/10ths reduction in 1/4 mile time is a lot--especially considering I was running heavier wheels" I would rather call this "common cause variation".

Time on the strip is dependant on how you drive, while trap speed is clear
indicator of power, recongnized by many racers. For Drew's stock we have
94,96mph and with mods 95,720mph. Deviation is 0.36mph. Of course the wild car entry of low 97 would raise the deviation to about 2mph.
Man lost his best slip ever, so this can't be entered for the record.

Case viggen, almost same mods as Drew ( Custom IC, JT exhaust, JT DP, race cat, gas flowed head ) Dyno run results from Hirsch performance can be found here: http://viggen93.mine.nu/viggen/stock.jpg
As one can see the torque curve clearly indicates miss behaviour in T7. Yes more peak power and torque was gained, but who cares since you don't drive your car with peak values to begin with.
Power curve raises just as smooth as Drews, but the torque curve "behind" it is a nightmare. Maybe Drew can calculate his, since he was keen enough to point out that "Do you remember that HP=torque*rpm/5252? Wouldn't a massive torque spike translate directly into a massive HP spike too?"
But lets leave Drew torque curve out of this since we (I) don't have it.

Case MP performance:
Results same quality as Drews, no indications of the gear, since results posted in RPM instead of mph like drew's. Results point out that it was done in the same
gear? Maybe the Porsche guys dynoed this car also? If they did, read above. Results can be found here
http://mpperformance.com/images/CatDynoCompare.jpg
175.2 for stock and 188.85 with the MP DP
Gain 13.65 whp in peak. Again the dynojet and T7 combination is proven to give
at least 7 Whp of deviation.
With this gain we got a boost spike
(http://mpperformance.com/Data/BoostCompare.jpg)
Note that the logger sampling rate is too low, the highest value is the third logged value. Sampling rate that equals about 700rpm is a way too low. For instance, we know that before the max boost value data point is about 135kPa and the next (max in this case) 155kPa. What is the possibility that the highest values on that plot will equal to the peak value of the spike? If you ask me, I will say relatively low.

We also got Airmass sheet by Eric
http://mpperformance.com/Data/MAF.jpg
Adrian commented "That's only roughly 17.2 lbs/min airflow. Very low for "188 wheel horsepower" ... more like 188 *crank* horsepower. It is far more likely the dyno was poorly calibrated." His whole post can be found here
http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/bb/performance/index.html?bID=87657
We also have leaner ( more rich for some of us ) A/F in high rpm.
More power and leaner A/F cant be good for EGT nor the knock safety margin? But like the guy(s) from MP wrote
"Your making more hp and torque over the entire graph…who cares what the
ignition timing is."
I think the MP man just said it all, what their point of view to engine tuning is. In other words, they don't care what will happen inside a
customer's car as long as it produces more hp, real nice, real nice.

Even though I my self am proven by Drew to be "But maybe you can still learn something that might be worthwhile to you personally and also to anyone who is subjected to your useless and non-objective bantering, that lesson you need to learn is this: You're not a T7 expert, you're an end user, and because of that you're not qualifed to make generalized statements about the complex inner-workings of T7"

I refuse to take back any of my word what consider the basic function of T7,until somebody comes up to me and says "hey this is how T7 really works, I have data to show you". I admit that I have gone to lengths in this conversation that I'm not really proud of, but feel it was a funny and necessary road that had to be walked. My original post on the topic "about custom HW parts" was meant to be provocative and to raise real conversations about this issue.

I promised you an outcome and here it is.
If I was a guy who was just getting into T7 tuning, I would buy a stage I since it will give you more hp gain than all the HW parts will ever do, plus you will more likely have a car that will run fine, no T7 complications and smooth power. Note that stage I, is not the best of choices due to engine load, but Money/HP gain/performance/smoothes ratio is good. I cant say Drew's way is incorrect "add all the HW parts before" a suitable SW, but way take the extra risk. Many tuners offer relatively cheap SW upgrades between stage levels.

And finally for those who read this far, some of the stuff that I wrote above are based on my personal opinions, so be careful in what you trust. Facts are un tampered and posted like they where originally laid out, though..

And for Drew, no hard feelings, this is just meaning less internet talk;)

With best regards

Vigge,
Olli Ruosaari


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