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"Thank you Vigge and no hard feelings have been taken at all. I truly hope the same for you too."
Like many times, I have found this rather “funny” than dead serious.
"So basically you're saying that hardware only mods can be safely done sometimes? :)"
You know my opinion about this, so lets not go there, not yet at least ;)
"Forgetting all the BS where you're comparing non-like data to other data, I'm glad that you've finally indicated that hardware only mods won't bring the End Times upon us all. "
"On a side note, and it doesn't actually matter, but just to let you know you've made a few more mistakes and over generalzations in your latest post again, like assuming that the Porsche shop has an AWD dyno, when really you have no idea or experience with that particular shop and their hardware (it's a 2wd dyno), and comparing 1/4 mile results with completly different operating conditions, and why would any car "peal" out in 4th gear on a dyno but not in 3rd--regardless of what gear the "major players" may use, and the fact that I haven't provided a dyno sheet with the numbers since the IC install (236 peak was from the same set of runs as the posted graph), and that the difference of 3/10ths in a quarter mile is light years in real time, and the fact that you're comparing some Viggen dyno results directly to 1/4 mile times for my car(?), and some others..."
My bad about that 9-3 aero, it was dynoed in third since the car could not handle the heat in fourth. I mixed the car with an another case, called the owner today to "re-fresh" my memory.
In other words it dropped to base boost. Like I wrote the pull is about 1min long in that dyno. If you watched the video you see that my car dropped to base boost as well, when I had the VIC still intact.
Reply to the side note:
About the AWD word, it was quoted text originally written by you. That Porsche shop has a web page, trust me I have been there…Anyhow you know that in stock shape the result for your car is not correct and since it correlates with my friends third gear result I see the similarity. I don’t know what gear they “generally” use for dyno runs in the states, but here fourth gear is the way to go. Fourth gear is more “strait” than third you know?
About that 236 dyno sheet, is it possible to get it now?
About the dyno comparison in general, I only wanted to point out that there is much variation to the results even with same set up same day aso.
IHMO I doubt there is less deviation for a B205R than a B235R when compared in a dyno room.
And for quarter mile, I wanted to point out the deviation in times when done same day, same conditions with same driver. It does not really matter what the car is deviation will still be about the same. Trap speed is a widely recognized indicator for power, so I don’t see why the +15% displacement would cause us a problem, weight, gearing are the same and both FWD cars of course.
From data we know that a stage I B205R can do more trap than a stock viggen. Its rated to 260bhp, so basically more power = more trap.
Both the dyno and quarter mile results aim at one single target, which is to get an idea about “common cause deviation”. This deviation comes from the “system” it self so there is nothing really nothing you can do to fix this, if same equipment is used, the dyno, T7, same driver on strip and weather conditions. Weather it self has at least two affect, lower output, but better traction. Even though the T7 will correct for hotter temp it does not mean you have the same output. Like stated before Hotter air is more knock sensitive (less efficient), the VE is lower (due to the increased duty cycle of the turbo) and the ignition is reduced.
But as long as we don’t know all the variables like traction vs. temp we cant make too many assumptions. Dyno pulls will show about less than 10hp loss when in normal temp +32...100F.
But back to your dyno results. Comparison over stock figures are meaningless in your case due to the different wheel size, both the diameter and width/diameter ratio will affect results. In your case this is even worse since the results are plotted to mph rather than rpm. Any change in diameter will result to the fact that with given mph the rpm will be different. So curves plotted to same mph do not represent your engine alike.
With all this the aim is to point out that we need a big enough sample size of measurements in order to know what the common cause variation and more importantly what the mean is. One sample type comparison with results that fit more ore less into common type variation just has too much error margin. So any comparison that has/is made between these values will more or less produce an outcome that does not represent reality. As an example I installed a custom IC, did comparison in a dyno during same day, so the conditions where about the same. Couple of pulls before and istallation of the new IC and at least same amount of pulls after. With this I got results that will state out results for the IC only.
”But all of that is pretty minor in the grand-scheme and yeah, since you've taken-back the ridiculous statements you originally posted, I basically agree with everything that you've written in this last post. And like I said before, I think that you and I have the same general idea of how T7 functions, right or wrong as it may be.”
That statement that you call ridiculous could IMHO be written “Upgrade of HW parts with std SW will more likely lead to some form of misbehaviour with in T7 (this would be loss of smooth power, ability to adapt as well to different situations aso.) than to any “real” gain in output or performance while maintaining the T7’s smoothness to deliver power and to adapt to different situations.
Above is based on the facts presented in the other tread and as well to the other cases I'm aware of.
”On a side note I think that you're wise in distancing yourself from 95power's statement that:”
"Trionic 7 is very sophisticated EMS, but to 'outsiders' ( like MP Performance etc. ) it's very difficult to one to cope with."
What I think of MP is given, but all the others may form their opinions just by reading back a few of perkj’s recent posts. Like I pointed out “I think the man said it all…”
"because really, when considering Saab performance I know that I'd prefer not to have any "outsiders" regardless of whether those outsiders are in the USA, England, Austrailia, Brazil, Italy, or any place else. Because, in the year 2004 everyone should know by now that talent and engineering excellence can happen anywhere--and especially can happen in Saab's bread and butter market. :) Where, if they didn't sell enough cars GM would likely close-shop on Saab for good."
I think with the word “outsider” 95 power refered to the “know how”, not location of shop.
I have written before this world is plenty big for all shop who provide parts for saab and all new comers are welcome. But one should be sure about “stuff” and show some critizicem to results before passing them on as “the proven truth”. Comment made by MP guys surely don’t raise their stock IMHO.
”So one more question. Does T7 run on a CAN bus or is it something completly different? I know T8 uses CAN which isn't so unique, but what about T7?”
To my knowledge the train is a CAN based I-BUS. WIS states that data is transferred through I-train with speed rate of 500kb/s and in the P-line (Powertrain) with 10x speed of I-line.
Well this is what WIS says, but in real life those numbers are nothing more than max transfer speed for the trains. Communication though I-train is done 50kbit/s, from which we can state train drivers tolerate much interference, like short out between nodes I+ and I-. At normal state (no operations going through) the is a 2.5V present at nodes I+ and I-. When active I+ goes up to 3.5V and I- to about 1.5v, so the potential difference will go up from 0V to 2V. As an example if key is turned off and radio is on there are messages passing with the interval of 5-10ms.
From the “OBD” port one cant get to the CAN based I-bus since the train there is a K-train, not CAN like in the SS.
Don’t ask me about K-train , I don’t know, lets just say I know it’s a K-train.
posted by 81.197.20...
, Sun, 19 Dec 2004 01:47:17
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