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Bob, thanks for getting Bar's involved, as they of all people should be able to answer any questions posed here.
Clayton, thanks for taking the time to participate in this discussion. As I have said earlier, I am neither "pro" nor "anti" Bar's Leaks. I have had it recommended a number of times on this board as a "preventative maintenance" measure, but have never seen any evidence presented to support that recommendation. I'm hoping you have access to the sort of evidence we have so far been lacking.
Firstly, let me say that I am in no doubt that Bar's Leaks is an effective leak-stop product. The ASTM test results that you sent to Bob (and that he kindly forwarded to me) show that it meets the required standard. While I would always prefer to replace a failed component rather than "patch it up", I can see that the use of Bar's Leaks would be beneficial in an emergency. Naturally, I would not consider the use of any stop-leak product in a poorly-maintained cooling system. Unfortunately, the dilemma is that these are often the systems most prone to leaking.
My concern is the recommendation to use Bar's Leaks as a means of "preventative maintenance". The claims as I see them are that it will reduce buildup of scale and corrosion, make my water pump last longer and seal any leaks before they become apparent. To support these claims, all I have so far is that people on this board have used it over a total of hundreds of thousands of miles of driving with no apparent cooling system problems. On top of this, the recommendation is also supported by a list of vehicle manufacturers who reportedly install Bar's Leaks at the factory and also recommend its use at coolant changes. However, the relevance of this list to whether or not I should use Bar's Leaks as preventative maintenance has still not been explained to my satisfaction.
From the preceding discussion thread, I can distill a few questions that I would invite you to answer, if I may. Hopefully, the answers will shed some light on what has been a cloudy issue on this board for some time, with opinion and counter-opinion thrown back and forth with very little in the way of objectivity. I fully understand your position and am happy to accept that you cannot be unbiased. It goes without saying, of course, that we can expect you to be honest, so we must simply remember to take your position into account when reviewing your answers.
1. I currently have three Saab 9000s, all of which have been fastidiously maintained with fluid changes at the Saab-recommended intervals, using Saab-recommended fluids. The fluid in each appears clean and clear and at fluid changes, the inside of the cooling system (what little is visible) appears like new. Paradoxically, it is only a cooling system in this condition that I would deem it safe to add a stop-leak product to. The five 9000s I have owned (including these three) have never displayed any cooling system problems, with the exception of a leak when I didn't tighten up a hose clamp properly after a coolant change. In total, these five vehicles have covered almost 700,000 miles between them. None of them has given any sign that any additional corrosion- or scale-inhibitor is necessary.
What benefit can you say I will see on my vehicles with the regular addition of Bar's Leaks? Do you have any comparative results to show the benefits of Bar's Leaks treatment against an otherwise identical untreated vehicle?
2. Bob has published a list on this board of car manufacturers who both install Bar's Leaks at the factory and recommend its addition at every coolant change. Is this list still current? The reason I ask is that I have read a report elsewhere on the Internet that Jaguar, one of the more impressive names on the list, no longer either install Bar's Leaks or recommend its use. This is, of course, hearsay, but you can see that it calls into question the validity of the list that has been used here as a "marketing tool" by the proponents of Bar's Leaks. Can you confirm or deny this report? If the report is true, then perhaps you can furnish us with a revised version of the list. I appreciate that Jaguar may still be purchasing this product from Bar's even if they have stopped using and recommending it, as it has been sold as a Jaguar part for many years.
3. Another question about the list. In support of the recommendation to use Bar's Leaks as preventative maintenance, the statement is often made (I paraphrase) "all these big OEMs use it, so it must give some benefit", with the implication that, like the recommendation of a high-quality oil, the addition of Bar's Leaks increases longevity of the vehicle, or has some other beneficial effect relevant to the long-term owner of the car. To validate this, it is essential to know exactly the benefit that the OEMs derive from installing Bar's Leaks in their new cars. For example, if it is simply to reduce warranty claims due to small leaks in brand new cars, as has been suggested, then this is irrelevant to the fastidious car owner who is prepared to fix any leaks that might occur in the "proper" manner.
Do you have any information (that you can divulge - I appreciate that client confidentiality might get in the way) on what benefit these manufacturers are seeking when they decide to install and recommend Bar's Leaks, given that this must add (admittedly only slightly) to the manufacturing cost of a vehicle?
I think that just about does it for the moment. As you can see, my concerns are not about whether Bar's Leaks is a safe and effective leak-stop product, but rather that it is promoted as a preventative without, so far, any supporting evidence, other than the evidence that it will stop leaks and is therefore useful as a leak preventative. This being the case, it is my personal preference for any leak to become apparent so that I may track it down and fix it. For example, in the case of the loose hose clip I mentioned above, I am concerned that having Bar's Leaks in the system would have stopped the leak and masked the problem but left the hose insecure, with possible dire consequences on a hot day under speed and load when the hose might have blown off under excessive pressure. I understand that it is in the interest of Bar's Products to market a preventative rather than a cure, as this has the potential to generate more business.
Apologies for the exceedingly long post (even longer than my usual lengthy posts!). I hope I don't appear antagonistic as it isn't my intention at all, but as an engineer, I refuse to take chances with something as critical as my vehicle's cooling system until I have factual evidence that there are benefits in doing so.
posted by 161.71.171...
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