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Re: What?
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Posted by Drew in Houston [Email] (more from Drew in Houston) on Mon, 13 Dec 2004 07:27:45 Share Post by Email
In Reply to: Re: What?, Vigge, Mon, 13 Dec 2004 03:24:16
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I can tell you where that HW/SW line has been drawn on my car: It's at some point after installing a full exhaust, a turbo inlet, a DP w/sportcat, an open element air filter, and a larger intercooler. I've done those hardware mods without touching the software and have not had any problems. Are you sure you're not talking about something that you haven't actually tried? The line on my car has been somewhere around the VFPR and larger injector area. Initially, I was concerned that it had some tuner software installed when I bought the car off of lease, but that has not proven to be the case. Check my posts on this board, I've even posted some dyno results in the past.

Positive fuel adaption: Yes, of course you will have more fuel. That is why the adaption capabilities exist--to compensate for more air. But really, in the case we're considering here more fuel equals more power, not less and that's because it is being combined with more air--the opposite of what you stated. What would cause those rules to no longer apply?

What about the PID control loops you mentioned before? Where do they come into play with respect to data tables?

Why would the MAF output not be correct if you agree in operating principal on how it works? I'm sorry, no, what you wrote doesn't make sense. More flow through the MAF equals more MAF signal output to the computer. The MAF will measure the flow throughput within the confines of it's span and accuracy capabilities, which is a constant in this equation regardless of software. In open loop you will have adjustments applied where a multiplier is used to maintain the desired A/F until the max adjustment is reached--based-upon closed loop steady state conditions. There is no problem there as long as that max is not reached. If a person somehow manages to increase flow past the point where adaption is possible, you'd run into a lean condition with the corresponding artificial decrease in boost and timing which is determined by the results of the post ignition ion test. I tried real hard to cause that potential condition with all of the hardwar mods listed above and have not done it yet. My wideband o2 sensor and little data logger verifies that--and the before and after dyno runs show more power, peak and RMS. Have you tried to do what you're saying can't be done? I have done it. If the A/F is fine in both closed loop, open loop, and WOT what is the danger with hardware-only mods that you're concerned about?

I can't 100% prove it, but as for hardware, copy or not, slight flow differences included, the magnitude of those differences in the hardware components of similar purpose are likely to be very small and insignificant in comparison to the variations in individual engines in stock trim coming straight off of the manufacturing line.

Engines are similar to accoustic guitars in that you can have a row of 200 Martin guitars and play every single one. What you'll eventually find is that although all of the components of those guitars are the same, and they've been built to the same standards and of the same materials, you can play every single one and in the end there will be maybe 1 or 2 that just sound better than the rest. Likewise, there will be a few that sound terrible. And SPC tells us that the bulk population will be within a certain allowable variance. Considering a street car and bolt-on parts, the magnitude of differences between tuner parts of identical purpose is not significant in comparison to the magnitude in variations between their intended engine applications in the very first place--so it will not matter (disregarding build quality) who actually supplied which parts.




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