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>> I couldn't find any information on GM using it....
You might have trouble finding out what brand of oil they install, too, but you can be assured that they do install oil at their factories. Bar's Leaks has advertised for years that the Big Three use it, and that 75% of new cars have it installed. They could not make that claim without it being true. Don't give me one of those "Ha, do you really believe advertising" responses, as I'm in the ad business and can assure you that the claim could not be made for this many years if it was untrue. The FTC frowns on such claims, and if untrue it certainly would at least be protested and challenged by a competitor.
>> This stuff, and Jaguar's recommendation to use it, have been largely blamed for the cooling problems that plague the XJ6, XJ12 and XJS in later life.
I ran across one such reference of this alleged problem, and you may use this to justify your decision making if you wish. Keep in mind that you're violating your own credo by accepting a statement without evidence.
A couple of years ago I ran across a reference from a new Jag owner that BL was recommended for use in the owners manual of his new Jaguar, but I can't locate it now. I see no evidence to think the Jaguar factory recommendation is out of date, but I'll check on it.
>> UK enthusiasts end up replacing the radiator, while US enthusiasts prefer to have the radiator "rodded" to remove this stuff that completely blocks the lower part of the radiator.
I've tried, apparently in vain, to inform this thread of the unlikelihood of such an event. BL will pass through a 24-gauge mesh screen, so do you think that any radiator with passages clogged to this extent could even pass water sufficiently to cool and engine? No one ever claimed that it could be installed in a system so poorly maintained as what you describe, and my assertion on this BB is that it can be an effective additive for PROPERLY MAINTAINED 9K's as a permanent fix for common heater-core maladies. It has worked for me and for others, and has clogged nothing.
Why do you assume that BL is responsible for clogging radiators? Did you examine the subject units? Why do you assume these units were properly maintained? If you drive a car, install BL, and never or improperly maintain it, what would you expect? If it fails, do you then blame the additive? I guess it would be a nice, convenient scapegoat, however.
My '91 9K now has 177k miles on it (now with another owner), and it continues to have exhibited no cooling-system trouble. When I owned it I changed the coolant every two years and used BL as prescribed. I also have a '66 Corvette here that's had BL installed regularly in a system that's been MAINTAINED PROPERLY for 20 years, and the system is clear and has exhibited no problems. Unlike a 9K radiator, I can remove the cap and see the veins in this car's radiator, and they are completely clear. You seem quick to point out anecotal evidence you find on the Web, but you seem unmoved by success stories here.
>> It has been suggested that Jaguar recommended this stuff simply to avoid the embarrassment of water leaks on a brand new....
This is undoubtedly the reason ALL these manufacturers use it, to decrease warranty claims. That's a no-brainer. So do you think they would install something in a radiator that will cause trouble for owners later on after the warranty expires? I doubt it, not in this competitive marketing environment.
>> Perhaps Suzuki took the same line on your motorcycle?
Keep in mind that it had BL installed at the factory, then it was insisted upon for later maintenance. The warranty was one year and the cooling-system maintenance requirement was two years, so I think you could safely say that their recommendation was not in the interest of keeping warranty claims down. By the time the first maintenance session was due the warranty would have been up for a year.
>> It is also a mistake to assume that automotive engineers, even those working for prestige car manufacturers, always have the interests of the second or third owner of the car at heart, and that they never make mistakes.
It is also faulty to assume that they DID make a mistake. Keep in mind that BL has been manufactured since 1947, so it has an historical record better than most products you can name.
>> It appears that Jaguar neither install this stuff in new cars nor recommend it any longer in older cars, contrary to what the Jaguar handbook advised when these cars were new.
Where did you come upon this assumption? I also did a web search and saw one reference that would suggest this, including the sites you referenced. Now the references:
http://www.usinternet.com/users/kyoung/jaguar.htm -- His only negative comment was "...but god help you if you need the heater after the stuff plugs the core." First, why do you assume the guy has maintained his car regularly? You know I have maintained my cars and NEVER HAD A CLOGGED RADIATOR OR HEATER CORE. It won't clog your system, it won't clog your system, it won't clog your system if you MAINTAIN IT regularly! If you don't maintain it, why automatically blame the additive for poor judgement?
http://www.zip.com.au/~wickers/page_6.htm -- "Bars Leaks is a useful product, but it requires the user to add it slowly to circulating hot water...." He is referring to the pelleted variety. I use and recommend the liquid in the silver container. I don't know about the pellets, frankly, but doubt that they would settle anywhere if installed properly.
http://www.jagbits.com/techbits.html -- Says it will clog radiators and Jag no longer recommends it. Why have I and many others here never had a clog? Could the problems be that some owners don't MAINTAIN THEIR COOLING SYSTEMS? Pardon the shouting, but I don't think I am being heard.
http://www.far-out.demon.co.uk/cardiy/servlog.htm -- This guy had a clogged radiator, therefore he blamed the Bar's Leaks. Okay, next....
http://www.jag-lovers.org/books/xj-s/19-Coolmods.html -- "The Jaguar recommendation to use Barr's Leaks in this system is often blamed, but there are apparently other contributors as well. Rust scale coming off the inside of the header tank and crossover pipe is a source of crud. Some mechanics use too much silicone sealant so it leaves a bead around the joint...." Why do you think Bar's Leaks should be blamed for the clogs in this case? Has it occurred to you that it is a convenient scapegoat? People see it is a sealer, then their system clogs. "Oh, it must be the Bar's Leaks." No evidence here. Next...
http://www.jag-lovers.org/xj-s/book/SinglePassRadiator.html -- Another guy's heater core is clogged, and BL is blamed. Again, why do you assume these people are blaming the right variables for their problems? When did he or the previous owner last change the coolant? We certainly don't know, do we? My Corvette can't be that different from a V-12 Jag, so why has my system not clogged in 20 years. Could it be...no! Could it be that I MAINTAIN MY SYSTEM?
>> ...since the information I found elsewhere seems to cast doubt on the validity of this list....
One site said that Jaguar no longer recommends it, but I count at least three on your list above that say they do. I'll find out Monday.
>> ...or at least to suggest that it is out-of-date, I cannot no longer accept this argument without further investigation.
Please let us know your objective findings.
>> Do you think it possible that it is this, rather than the addition of "Bar's Leaks" that might account for the lack of cooling system problems?
I think this is very likely the source of most if not all of these claims you cite, and it is very easy to assign a scapegoat without evidence to support it. I have seen no objective references to Bar's Leaks clogging anything, none that have concomitant evidence supplied anyway.
>> I have yet to see an objective test where two identical cars....
That would be interesting, but I haven't seen it either, and likely won't.
>> So far, while there is not much evidence to suggest that it does any harm to a healthy 9000 cooling system, you have not presented any evidence that it does any good.
I have evidence that my Corvette and two Saab 9K's, one with 177k miles on it, have not exhibited cooling system problems, including heater-core seapage. This evidence is anecdotal, admittedly, as one could accurately assert that the systems might have done as well without it, but I like the odds.
I do appreciate your input and the lively debate, as I've certainly learned something as a result. FWIW, I still see nothing that would dissuade my future use of BL, however.
posted by 68.11.251...
, Sun, 25 Aug 2002 13:26:13, Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:46:17
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